Some denominations allow women in the pulpit, while others don’t

Dianah Gourley, pastor at First Presbyterian Church in Sallisaw, will tell you that it’s been a long journey for women who want to serve the church in a leadership role.

“It’s been a long battle for women to preach. Presbyterians didn’t accept women as pastors until 1956, which is recent,” Gourley said last week in the wake of the Southern Baptist Convention voting to expel two churches with women pastors. In addition, the SBC, the nation’s largest Protestant denomination, amended its constitution to specify that Southern Baptist churches must “affirm, appoint or employ only men as any kind of pastor or elder as qualified by scripture.”

The SBC lists eight Southern Baptist churches in Sallisaw.

“At one point, the women were in the kitchen and served the meals and washed the dishes, and that was their role,” Gourley said of a woman’s subservience in modern-day churches.

“That was not true in biblical times. One of the first elders, what we call elders now, nobody was a better disciple or apostle than Mary Magdalene. So women had a role in Jesus’ ministry when He was here on Earth.”

Mary Magdalene is known in some Christian traditions — in particular by Pope Francis — as the “Apostle to the apostles,” and is portrayed in New Testament apocrypha writings as a visionary and leader of the early movement whom Jesus loved more than he loved the other disciples.

But, as Gourley acknowledges, different denominations have different views, particularly when it comes to men and women.

“There are scriptures that say the man is the head of the household, and the woman should defer to him. That doesn’t work in most households,” Gourley says with a knowing chuckle. “But some denominations are really set on that.

“I spoke to a woman once who was leaving the church she loved because her husband wanted to. There’s nothing wrong with married people going to two different churches. It’s wherever you get what you need for your soul,” she said.

When it comes to women serving as pastors, Gourley again points to interpretations of the Bible.

“They will probably cite biblical passages. Some people think that it’s literal, you take everything literal. And some don’t, they know that there are passages that do not fit today, like how to care for your slaves.”

Gourley also believes the Bible is clear about a Christian’s worthiness to share God’s Word.

“I have a passage, it’s Galatians 3:26-28. It’s talking about the laws of the church. ‘For in Jesus Christ you are all children of God through faith, as many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male or female, for all of you are one in Christ.’

“That, for me, if you want to interpret it, says that anybody that has clothed themselves in Christ should be allowed to be in the pulpit,” Gourley said, putting a fine point on how she believes the Bible addresses the issue.

“But there are massive amounts of denominations. The majority, over a majority of people in the Baptist church are believers in God and believers in Jesus,” she admits. “They go about it a different way. And I think we should be tolerant. I think they’re missing out on some very good preachers, but that’s their denomination and they can run it the way that they see fit.”

But in her 10 years as pastor at First Presbyterian Church after 32 years as a nurse, Gourley knows no denomination is immune to controversy.

“It may cause a big uproar for them,” she said, speaking generally about decisions a denomination makes. “I know when the Presbyterian church decided and voted to allow gays to be in the pulpit, there were big splits. The Methodist church is going through the same thing right now.

“It could split them. I read an article that they were doing that, that the churches that didn’t get rid of their female pastors are being released from the denomination. So there is a split there regardless.

“And most people, especially if a pastor has been there, say, longer than five years, they like him. And so the churches may say, ‘fine, we’ll start our own church.’ People that want to go to church and want to be part of worship will do it regardless,” Gourley said.

“People leave and come back and go to another denomination, and they may not like the theology that they hear. It doesn’t affect their belief in Christ, and that’s what’s important.”

Even though the Presbyterians have said gays can serve in the pulpit, it’s still the local church’s decision, Gourley revealed. It’s not necessarily that way with some other denominations.

The local Presbyterian church is governed by a session, which consists of elders, and strictly represents the congregation in its composition as far as gender, race, ethnicity and sometimes even age.

“We’re still going through it with marriage of gays. Can we? Can’t we? You can, but your church may not like it and that’d be the end of you.

“The minister within the Presbyterian church is governed by that session. If I want to baptize somebody, I take it to the session. They approve. I want to marry somebody, I take it to the session. They approve. They run the church. Well, God actually runs the church, but you know what I mean,” she said.

“There’s a big misconception. The church is not the walls. And back when Paul was making his trips all around, they met in houses, and a lot of them in secret. We are blessed that we can walk in the door and not hide and cower. We can proclaim our belief in Jesus without being afraid of being beheaded or shot or whatever.”

So why the fervor over a woman in the pulpit?

“Her perspective,” Gourley said succinctly. “Because a woman’s perspective is different than a man’s perspective, that can change what is discussed and how it’s discussed within the church. It’s a woman’s voice that men are trying to keep from being brought forward. It’s not anything else but their voice, and it is because they have a different perspective on most things. The basics, no, but how that’s perceived.”

Gourley points out that while there may be specific differences from one denomination to the next, local pastors are able to set aside male theocracy for the good of the community.

“We have an organization in town, the Pastors Fellowship, that we have Baptist churches and other denominations. I don’t know how they feel about women, but yet we come together and work together for the good of the community. So sometimes people put aside what they believe should happen within their own four walls when they know that the cause is good.”

A different perspective As pastor of one of Sallisaw’s largest Southern Baptist churches, Joe Taylor of First Baptist Church provided a local perspective on the SBC’s position regarding women as pastors.

“I think it’s probably just as simple as we believe that men and women are gifted for service in the church, but we believe the scripture teaches that the office of pastor and deacon is limited to men, as the scripture qualifies that. This is our stance and belief,” Taylor said last week.

“From 1 Timothy chapter 3 and Titus chapters 1 and 2, they speak to that. And when you look in the New Testament overall, the scriptures really make it clear that when God called men for pastoral service — someone who’s going to be the teacher or preacher from the pulpit on a Sunday morning — He called men to do that. And then the Apostle Paul, he clarifies that in several of his letters to the early church about how men are to fulfill that role. And then every time you find a pastor in a New Testament church in the scriptures, when it speaks of their name, it’s always a man. So that just backs up what the scripture’s teaching about men fulfilling that role,” Taylor explained.

“We’re not saying that women aren’t complementary. They are very, very, very helpful in many ways. But just that one office is reserved for male leadership. Just like the husband, we believe the scripture teaches, to be the head of the house, not that he’s a ruler. And the pastor’s not a ruler either, for that matter, just a shepherd for the body of Christ. The scripture teaches that we’re all sheep, but there’s a shepherd to help to lead the sheep within the church.”

To be sure, Taylor’s religious convictions do not align with those of Gourley in her citation of Galatians as the authority for women serving as pastors.

“With all due respect, I would suggest that Galatians chapter 3 is not referring to the office of pastor. It is referring to us as Christians in the realm of the church, and that is not really referring to the leadership or the officer roles within the church. You have to take everything in context when you read the scriptures. I understand Galatians to say that this is referring to people who are saved have become a follower of Christ. So there’s no difference in race. There’s no difference in free or slave. There’s no difference in male or female. We’re all equal as far as being in Christ.

“So I think what that’s referring to is once a person is saved, then the ground is level as far as equality. We’re not disputing that, we’re just suggesting the different roles within the body are fulfilled by certain people. In Timothy and Titus and several other passages, the idea in those passages is that there’s different roles, not difference in equality, but difference in roles within the body to be fulfilled by individuals, pastors to be a male. That would be our belief on that,” Taylor said.

Then Taylor clarified the SBC’s actions from last week.

“As far as the language that the SBC used, there was a committee that actually met with these churches, talked with them, reasoned with them about this for many months before we

arrived at this decision. What the vote was about was that we were just removing their ‘friendly association’ with the convention, that status was removed,” he said.

“At some point, if they wish to enter back into the convention as a Southern Baptist church, then they can petition, and then they will review the things that qualify as a church for being a candidate as a member in the Southern Baptist Convention. But that doesn’t negate the autonomous body of believers that meets locally, all around the country, in fact all around the world every Sunday or throughout the week. Those bodies of believers are autonomous and they can function as they see fit, we’re just not recognizing that they can be part of SBC life as a whole,” Taylor concluded.

The Southern Baptist Convention last week sparked dialogue within many circles with the expulsion of Saddleback Church, the California megachurch, which was the SBC’s second-largest congregation. The other church expelled was Kentucky’s Fern Creek Baptist, which has been led by a woman for decades.

“There are people who want to take the SBC back to the 1950s when white men ruled supreme and when the woman’s place was in the home. There are others who want to take it back 500 years to the time of the Reformation,” Rick Warren, retired pastor

and founder of Saddleback Church, said following the expulsion.

In the 1980s, the SBC determined that scripture says “women are not in public worship to assume a role of authority over men,” and amended its Faith and Message statement to note that women should submit “graciously” to their husbands, according to reporting by The Washington Post.

At the turn of the century, the SBC amended the Faith and Message again to say, “the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”

Then last week, the SBC further amended its constitution to prohibit churches from allowing women to hold lead preaching/teaching pastoral roles.

In the second chapter of 1 Timothy, the Apostle Paul writes: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” This epistle is, of course, diametrically opposite to Gourley’s interpretation of the Galatians passage she cited.

So what’s the answer to a woman’s place in the church? Denomination? Scriptural interpretation? Old Testament vs. New Testament? Cultural perspective? Personal preference? All of the above? None of the above?